Transcript for "Marketing evolved. Your job description didn't.": Hello. Welcome. Thank you for joining us for the session called marketing involved. Your job description has it. I'm Cathy Mackey, cofounder of inverter growth marketing firm, and I'm joined very excited to be joined by John Miller. John, so the three people in the world who perhaps don't know you, I'll give a short intro and let you also do a little to me, you've spent I've known you probably since Marketo days. You have spent your career really helping shape and how marketers think about growth, about measurement, about buyers' journeys. You cofounded Marketo. You create a lot of the marketing practices that we still use today. I also know that you started to really learn more about CMOs and how that role has changed. You have the CMO, b two b CMO project. You have cofounded Fave. John, what else have you done that I'm not aware of? Have a lovely wife and two kids. Back in my youth, I used to run some triathlons, so, some fun facts. No. But, yeah, I've been in marketing technology pretty much my entire career, and I think, I have real passion for it. It's it's funny. I studied physics in my undergraduate, but somehow just fell into the smart tech world and have never looked back. I know. I remember you mentioned once physics. That's a whole other story John will talk about, but I will we won't get into it here. But, really, the context for this call I want to have you is I think marketing leaders are navigating a lot of change, and, actually, not leaders. I'd say everyone in marketing. You know, how buyers, buyers are changing, how they research, how they make decisions, AI is changing, what marketers can do. I think many of the ways that we measure marketing and how we organize ourselves, we've probably meant for a whole different environment. And so I want to cover probably four areas today with you. You know, how do marketers, marketing leaders, build credibility, better demonstrate their contribution to business, how do CMOs think about brand and how to that investment and growth, how is AI changing the buyer journey, and what does it mean to actually redesign the work, you know, so when AI becomes part of the operating system. So the format today, there are no slides today as far as I know. Strictly a conversation. I know. What a shame. Strictly conversation. I think, John, I'm really curious to learn from you what you've learned from the research from your b to b, CMO project. Also just what you've learned building Fave over the last two plus years or so. I'll share some examples, observations from clients, probably about thirty five minutes of questions, ten minutes for q and a. And then I'm gonna suggest everyone stick around. John is gonna give us a look at Fade, his new marketing AI automation platform. So, John, I'm just gonna start with you've done all this with the research. You've talked to 50 plus marketers. What made you conclude that the same role no role needs to change, and maybe what surprised you most about what you learned? Yeah. If if... I think I'll answer that by just actually starting to even half step back. Like, why did I even start the b to b CMO project. in. the first place? Because I was talking to a lot of CMOs. And, man, I just had so many conversations with executives who were really just struggling and and frustrated with the state of marketing... Being a marketing leader at a b to b company. They... A lot of them feeling really burned out in many ways. And there's all this pressure, and and you see that in... I think the the biggest, symptom of it is all these companies that are not having CMOs anymore, you know, and that are pushing marketing down. You know, demand gen reports to revenue marketing and product marketing reports to product and brand reports to who knows where. You know? And I think it's symptomatic of just a lot of problems with how b two b has been running and thinking for a while. So I started the b two b CMO project as a research and community initiative to create the resources for these marketing executives to not just, like, sit there and get beaten up by other peers and knocked down, but to find... To get the support they need to be a strategic member of the leadership community. You know? B to b marketing is too important to sort of be left to chance. You know? It needs it needs strong leaders. So how do we get there? Right? I mean, so that's that's sort of why we started the project. And as as you alluded to, there... Well, there is community. There... You know, we have we have an online community. We have events, learning sessions, but we also did a really nice podcast if... You know, with some great guests. But what we anchored the whole thing on was research. So we we we did pretty in-depth interviews with over 50 CMOs from, like, pretty serious companies, Salesforce, Zoom, you name it. And there were five findings, you know, as as part of that, which we'll talk about. The the the challenge that we heard, I think, really came down to the fact that there was a b to b marketing playbook that we've been following for twenty years. You know? I helped in some way to craft it back at Marketo. Kathy, you've been part of preaching Yeah. these things for a long time. Serious decisions was part of it. And, you know, this whole idea of marketing, earning their seat at the revenue table by generating MQLs and making everything really measurable and handing off to sales in a highly aligned way. It may... It sounded good, and it made sense. But the problem think, is I think, I think it did solve a problem at the time, though. Because prior to that, we didn't have anything. So as much as I don't think it's the way we need to do things now, things have changed. I don't wanna dismiss it completely. It it brought like, you have create popularized sort of all of us, but it gave a way to prioritize accounts, people. It started to build that alignment, and so Yeah. It helps marketing dismiss. it. Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. I think it helps marketing earn a seat at the revenue table, but I think it's gotten dated. Agree. You know, Kim Storen from from Zoom in our research had a very simple quote. She's like, none of it works anymore. Right? You know, the ebooks to. get people to fill in a form, download an ebook. Like, that doesn't work anymore. A lot of... You know, and then we started doing SDR outbound at high volume with outreach and sales. That doesn't work anymore. You know, it just... You know, and and and collectively, what's happening is some some major trends. So buying is happening increasingly in a complex buying committee that are just getting more and more complicated. That research is increasingly happening anonymously in ways that we can't see or track. And and so that core playbook doesn't work anymore. Second, the the traditional playbook, I think, was just too simplistic a model. I call it a gumball machine. We had this idea of I can just run a campaign and get more leads out, but buying is way too complicated for that. That's, you know, And then I think the other thing that's been around for a while but has just never really been well solved is for many companies, most of the revenue happens after the initial sale. And yet the traditional funnel ends at the customer. You know? And so there's lots of talk about a bow tie and all that, but, frankly, anybody who's running the old playbook kind of has a bias towards new business. So there's all these factors, you know, at play in terms of the playbook not working, and then you combine that with, you know, the way marketers are expected to try to show impact, bringing MQLs to the table, trying to say, well, marketing influenced x percent of the revenue and all that. That's all kind of fundamentally broken in terms of how marketing is actually... How it actually works. You know? So there's just this... There's this big disconnect that is ultimately the problem that we went out to to solve. And and CMOs need to, more than anything else, not become operators of a function, but strategic leaders of the company. And I think we should talk more about that, but but if... That's probably the simplest piece that the research found is not just why it needs to change, but how it needs to change. So if I just go back to a simple thing on that, like MQLs, Sure. like, Yeah. I think you said, most of them, you know, hey. Most people agree it doesn't work any for anymore. But I work with a lot of companies, and they're still in the MQL phase. So what is making that transition so hard? Well, I think you... I mean, you said yourself. Like, it did work. Like, there was. value here. did. Yes. You know? There's there's something good in the concept of the MQL, right, which. is, I would say, it was the, the multi sided contract. You know, like, marketing said, we are not going to pass everything over to you, sales. We are going to send the stuff that's worth your time. Right? Which means sales is happy because they're just getting stuff worth their time. It means the customer's happy because they're not getting calls from salespeople that they don't want. In exchange, sales had their side of contract, which is, and we will have service level agreements for how we follow-up on these things. So the concept is great. The problem is it got kind of denatured in execution, where over time, pressure hit goals, for whatever reasons, you know, caused... You know, the strict definition of what it really means to be marketing qualified got looser and looser to the point that, man, I talked to so many companies where an MQL was anybody who responded to anything. You know? And so what happens then is sales cherry picks. Right? And they're like, well, they only follow-up with something, and the whole thing kind of breaks down. And then the other problem with the MQL is obvious. It's the l. It's a single person. Yeah. And we have all learned that one person does not actually indicate what's going on at the account. You could have one person who who is all over your website, downloads a ton of content, might mean nothing, but boom, they're in MQL. You might also have 10 people visit your website, just go to two web pages, None of them MQL, but there's clearly something going on. So we've learned that leads don't work. That's why we had... Why we had ABM. We introduced the concept of the MQA, marketing qualified account. But even that wasn't good enough, and that's why we also talked about buying groups, as really the right object. Yeah. And I think MQA just became another score. That's what I saw. Like, we just switched. But what I've seen I'm curious if you've seen in your research. What I saw is when people moved to MQA, they basically just put it on the BDR. Like, marketing didn't change what they were doing. Sales didn't change. But suddenly, like, oh, when we send you this MQA, you know, BDR, you have to do all this other stuff. And so when people start to switch to MQA's or buying groups, what do you see actually? Like, what has to change within the company? Because it isn't otherwise, it's just a score. Like, it's a different version of an MQL. I think that there's... Well, you know, I wrote an article a while back that I sort of talked about, like, the three tier model. And these three tiers, they can happen at the person level, the buying group level, or the account level. But each... You need to think about each of these buckets kind of differently. So the first tier is, like, the true hand raiser. Right? Somebody's like, I want to talk to a salesperson. Great. We all want those. All day long, those are fabulous. At least if they're in the ICP. I talked to a bunch of people who've just said that's all... That the only thing we care about are hand raisers. Right? We don't talk about anything else. The problem with that is it's probably too late. You know? In in... When... In a world where 95% of the buying decision is being made before anyone ever... Or sorry. It's probably, like, 90% of the buying decisions made before anyone even talks. to sales, And it is... The decision is made in the buying committee forming. If you wait for somebody to say, I'd like a demo or I'd like to talk to sales, it's too late. So hand raisers are great, but they're far from sufficient. So then I think you wanna have another bucket of people or accounts or buying groups. I'm gonna just stick with buying groups because I think it's the right object. Yeah. Yep. Or buying groups that are showing evidence... Signal that you think there is buying activity going on. You know? And that can be first party intent signals, third party intent signals, you name it. But collectively, there's enough evidence that makes you think that buying committee is doing something that you you do wanna reach out. To me, that is the qualified buying group or the marketing qualified account or or something like that. I think for those, you do want an SDR to reach out, when that happens, but it's gotta sort of still be the right kind of reach out. You know, the the the... Too much of, like, oh, hey. I saw you're all over our website. Do you wanna demo? That's not gonna work. Yeah. So we can talk more about kind of the best practices, you know, for for reaching out. But in some ways, that is the new inbound follow-up. Mhmm. You know? But then there's this third bucket that I call the engaged buying group. The... This this buying group is not showing signs of purchase activity, but they are showing signs of engaging with you and your brand. I don't think you should ignore those. You know? I think if you ignore them, you risk waiting till they can hand raise when it's too late. But I don't think that's necessarily the BDR's job to follow-up on. Right? If these are the right people at the right accounts, how do you really put together an engagement strategy that's moaned by marketing but uses SDRs, BDRs, and salespeople in the right way at the right time to build preference, build awareness, continue that engagement. Again, they're gonna raise their hand when they're ready, but at least this way you're influencing the process every step of the way. Yeah. I'm gonna ask one more question, Rob. I do wanna get on to Brent because I think you're starting to touch on that now. Yes. We are. Yeah. So we have talked about the MQL. We've trained CFOs, CEOs on it for twenty years. What do we replace that with? And then also to move into branch. I think that gets into how do you show contribution to brand. Yeah. I like to sort of talk about different... You show different metrics to different audiences at different times. Right? You know, as as a CMO, as as I I I only alluded to this, but read the research report. It's got a lot more detail. Mhmm. You don't want to be just the person who runs marketing. You want to be the the member of the... A strategic member of the executive committee, which means first and foremost, you know, you should be bringing insights. You should be bringing an understanding of the market and an understanding of the customer that marketing is uniquely qualified to be able to do. You wanna earn the right to be in every room where important decisions are being made because you are the best representative of what the market and the customer cares about. And then we get to metrics. And, you know, of course, you wanna primarily lead with metrics that they already care about, Things like, pipeline win rate, net revenue retention, customer acquisition cost, efficiency. Right? Those are the things that that they care about. Quick. nuance. I hate the metric of marketing source pipeline and marketing influence pipeline because we all know that any pipeline in a complex world, it's got many marketing touches and sales touches and probably partner touches and a whole bunch of stuff you cannot see. So trying to give credit to one department is like... I mean, I'm I'm... Well, it's like trying want... to give credit to one channel. It's the same it's... argument I have. Yeah. So I I should've set this up. I was talking about marketing is not a gumball machine. It's not a. simple linear process. It is complex. It is nonlinear. Complex nonlinear systems are well studied. It's called chaos theory. Right? And and we've heard this sort of example of chaos theory means the butterfly flapping and swings in Brazil causes the hurricane in Japan. That same analogy, once you recognize that b two b buying is actually complex and nonlinear, trying to say this touch, this channel, this department created that deal is like trying to pick which butterfly flap from which butterfly caused the hurricane. It is literally mathematically impossible, and trying to do so, I think, is literally a waste of time and energy. So so pipeline, good metric, but focus on total pipeline, not, well, this is a marketing source, you know, or anything like that. And then make sure that you can show the deal story for any pipeline. Here's everything that influenced this deal over time. Here's marketing sales across the board. Okay. So those are your top level metrics. And then, sure, you can then below those, you know, but not maybe at your executive team level, but not the board. That's true. You're gonna talk about things like brand awareness, which we'll get to, and marketing qualified, buying groups, in gate... Qualified engagement and things like that. And then only, like, a lot of the traditional marketing metrics, keep those internal to marketing. Yep. They're operational guides. They're not strategic metrics. I couldn't agree more. I see people in the channel chiming in also. Yes. But I am, gonna, plus one. yeah, I'm gonna switch over to brand for a moment only because in your report, John, one thing that jumped out to me was and you might care, man, that it was, like, 73% of more, CMOs said that brand makes demand more efficient or effective, but only 28% could prove it. And so that's a real problem to me when budgets get tight. But I also hear a lot right now on LinkedIn everywhere, oh, brand has been neglected. But then when I work with companies, I look. And there's a lot of spend on what I would typically call brand. It's media. It's website. It's content. It's agencies. It's creative. And so then I think, is it not that it's been neglected? It's just like to me, when I'm working with most companies, it's two different groups. There's like what brand has or corporate comps and all that type of stuff is they plan different, they have different conversation with the business, they have different metrics, and demand is somewhere else with it. And it suggests they need to work together more like to me, like, what is it? Like, what where is the issue there? Yeah. I mean, you're right. Even analyst reports. Right? Like, your Gartner spend. That's that's a brand impact. You. know? Your community. So it's not that people aren't spending. I think I think the... There is, though, a balance ratio. I did another research project, where people... The the median okay. So so LinkedIn and, the b two b Institute did some research where they found that that the sort of guided split of brand versus demand should be, I think I think it came in at 60 demand, 40 brand, or maybe it was 55, 45. That's sort of like... Almost like the recommended, you know, Mhmm. split, Yep. if you will. But most b to b companies are closer to seventy thirty split. So so, yes, they are spending on brand, but but I think most people would say that they're sort of underinvested, if you will, given the way that buying is happening today. The the the challenge, you have a. CMO yeah. I was gonna say, how would you make a CMO make a case then for brand more bear and spin? So, I mean, it it it starts by not asking for more budget. Right? It... Like. like, at the end of the day, like, you, like, you as a marketer, should be able to control your budget. So, you know, start by just taking some demand spend and move it, you know, if you will. But that can be scary for people if you've only just been measured on MQLs because, you know, by definition, like, yeah, your MQL spend numbers might go down if you move that. So you do wanna sort of... And more start with the conversation around how are we going to be measuring success? You know, you know, I think that... Oh, gosh. I talk I talk to, like, so many CMOs, like... Or CEOs even. And and and they're like, gosh. Like, my marketing is not going that well. Like, it seems harder than it should be to create pipeline. Like, what should I do, John? You know? And usually, Yeah. I I ask this question. What is the one thing that you would want every member of your ICP to know or feel about you, you know, especially relative to the competition? You know, and then I usually explain that BMW is performance and Volvo is safety, right? Apple design or something like that. It doesn't have to be one word because b two b brands are probably more complex than b two c. But what's that one thing you want them to know? And then I say, and would every single person in your company answer this in the same way? And even pretty large companies fail that test know, every single time. So I think if you can get that right, though, that's what matters. You wanna drive that through everything. And then if you are there, now you actually have a really important metric to track, which is what percentage of your ICP, unaided, will answer the way... That question the way you want them to answer. Lena Waters, when she was at Grammarly, would literally took... Turned off one of her... The trade shows they've been doing, $20 a quarter, and put that into a brand tracking study that asked that question. Because she convinced the board that that this... That trick really, really matters. And then some of the best CMOs in our research project are correlating that to pipeline a quarter or two later. So they're basically saying, that's one. look. This brand metric went up, and then two quarters later, demand went up. You have to sort of tie those dots together as a strategic CMO. I think you're right because I like you said, if you ask a lot of people what does a strong brand look like, they couldn't answer it, which I think is what you came across. Like, what does that actually mean? I'll just switch over to AI because. I know you've done obviously, it's failed of it. a lot. Never heard of it. So marketers are using it. Buyers are using it. What has already changed about how buyers discover, evaluate companies? Like, what have you come across? Yeah. Well, so, I mean, obviously, there's a ton of stuff out there. You know, 63% of buyers, according to Australia, are using AI doing the purchase journey. 94% are using to fact check, you know, and that kind of thing. People are using these to kinda compare vendors, you know, all that kind of stuff. So there's no doubt that buyers... AI is playing an important role in in research. But Kerry Cunningham over at six cents, I I... He does some really good research. They're. working on publishing their most recent b to b buyer. study. He was trying to give me a little bit of a sneak peek, which is, effectively, in b to b, they're not building their shortlists off of ChatGPT. Right? People. are not going to ChatGPT. to I just talked to Carrie also about that research. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're they're not going to GPT and say, hey, GPT. What's my best alternative to Marketo? You know? Like, they know that. They're, you know, they're talking to their friends. They're talking to their colleagues. They're they're getting the information, but they are using these tools to help them structure the decisions. You know, what should be my evaluation criteria? How do I... You know, help me build my RFP? Sometimes, what are the pros and cons to create and create a presentation that they bring to their buying committee? So it's different in b two c. In b two c, it's about discovery. You know? I bought... Yesterday, I I literally was buying replacement parts for my grill, and I. literally just bought the ones ChatTPT said to buy. But that's not the way it is in B two B. You know? So, there are there are other people out there who are probably better experts than I am at answer engine optimization, AEO and GEO. The one thing I will say about that before then, let's talk about the other side of the equation, Mhmm. is... And Google's already signaling this. You know, last year, there was a lot of time and energy spent to how do we optimize our websites so that the agents can talk to it. And people were building FAQs, you know, and and l l m dot t x t and all that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying don't do that. I just lost the website, and I did all that kind of stuff. But I think just like in regular search, the trend is gonna be just create good content for people and for humans, and, the AI figures it out. Like like, tricks to optimize just for AEO are probably, in the end, not gonna help as much as just kind of doing the right the right thing. I agree. I do think that this this is getting a little speculative, but we've talked about qualified buying groups and knowing when an account is in market and showing buying signs and all that kind of stuff. I think, you know, we wanna think about the agent. The agent is a member of the buying committee. Right? It's a persona that we need to talk to, just like we talk to finance differently than the end user. We need to take activity from the agent and use that in scoring just like we would a whole bunch of people, you know, going on the website. You know, we're not there yet, but but I think that's kind of the direction where things need to be going. If that's interesting perspective, I would would agree. So we talked about the buyer. AI is being used internally. And what I hope we don't see is, you know, marketers spoiled email. Are we using AI just to make more emails, more content? Like, what should marketers be doing different now? And I'll I'll leave it with that. Then I have a perspective I'll bring in. Or maybe let let me let me tee it up a little bit. more. Okay. But I. I can answer that question. Go go ahead. So I I think this is gonna lead into your next question, which is why I I I I paused for a sec. So Yeah. you're you're right that AI... The first use cases of AI when we all started playing with chat GPT was to create content. And then I think we quickly realized that that creates a lot of AI slop. And then we all had to sort of, you know, move on to kind of the next stage. I think we saw an explosion mostly last year of using AI to try to create what looks like personalized content. And the AI SDRs kind of show... Showed up everywhere. And and now the AI slop got worse because now it looked and smelled personalized to us, and so it took more effort to realize that it's actually just slop. I think we're now finally moving into an era where we can use AI to personalize in the ways that really matter. So there's this rule of thumb. This is gonna date my... Date me and my age here. But back from the direct marketing age, there was this rule of thumb that people had that 40% of the success of a campaign came from the offer, 40% came from the list, and 20% came from the creative. You're nodding like this. Sounds like you've you've heard of this rule of, thumb. I know that step so well. Yes. Yeah. So if you apply that to sort of the modern world, I would argue the translation is 80% of your success comes from getting the right offer to the right people at the right time, and 20% of your success comes from getting the right content to them, like the personalizing the content. So all this AI generated content we've been doing is really optimizing around the 20%. And what I think is way more interesting is how do I use AI to optimize the 80%, the right offer to the right person at the right time? Now that's been a thing in b to c for years with next best action optimizers and all that kind of stuff. But the reality is nobody's really nailed it in b to b yet, because b to b just is different from b to c. You have, on the one hand, much sparser data, that makes it harder to build models. And at the same time, you actually have a much more complex set of decisions with multiple members of buying committee over a much longer sales cycle and and, frankly, much more complex level of inputs. So machine learning failed to solve this next best action personalization, in b to b, even though it worked in b to b to c. But as we'll talk about, that's what's to me is so exciting about what modern AI models can do, reasoning models can do, is it actually can deliver that personalized experience for each person right off the right time, not just for one action, but a sequence of actions. So that's... So, yes, what should marketers do differently? We should be thinking about using AI to personalize the customer's journeys, not personalize their content. That's an interesting take. You know, one of the things that have come up I think it was Gartner had this research first, Sean, and we hadn't talked about this ahead of time. But there's but I know with Carrie. I talked about with Carrie Cunningham where something like 86% of their buying journeys just stall. And Gartner had something around what they're calling, I think, consensus content or connected content. Like, the problem is you have 10 or 13 people. Getting them all to agree is one of the hardest things to do. Yep. So even though we personalize the content, like, the CFO gets it about impact and risk, the tech guy gets it around integrations, the user gets it around adoption. There's a miss on how to get them to see it all together. Can you see AI helping in that way at all? Yeah. And and I think a couple different ways. The the first one is maybe technical, but but you have to be able to know who the members of the buying committee are. And that's been too hard, you know, be... If it's manually mapping and that kind of thing. But, you know, AI can just look at it. Hey. This is Kathy. She's showing interest in this product, and she's got this title, and the the the... These other factors. She's probably the decision maker in this buying committee. Right? And, like... So step one is just forming the buying committees and understanding the the makeup of each one. And then when you're planning out the journeys for each member of that buying committee, you don't wanna do that in isolation for each person. Yes. This is Kathy's journey, as we'll talk about a minute. I call them playlists. You know, Yep. this is Kathy's playlist, but I need to compute Kathy's playlist by knowing what else is happening to everybody else in her buying group. So I'm getting a consistent message across, and I'm sort of doing the right thing at the right time is buying group... Has a buying group lens, not just the individual lens. Which which brings me to. what we had talked about, talked, about too. is this is changing how marketing actually works, and you hear this redesigning the work. So everyone goes like, what does that mean? And the best example I can give, and I'd love to hear your perspective, this is obviously what you've been focused on the last two years is I've heard people, oh, I redesigned my campaign process. And they've made the brief faster. They made the content faster. They have it choose a channel, and they do the the analysis faster. But it's just faster. It's not different. And can you use AI? And I'm gonna sort of tee you up on this, that you're monitoring those accounts. You're seeing who's missing in the buying group. You're figuring out what to send. I mean, do you have examples of where people have actually done things differently, not just faster? Yeah. I mean, this does get into a little bit about how Fav is designed to work. You're right. But but... Yes. You're exactly right. So, you know, if if you have a legacy marketing automation tool, you know, like a Marketo, and you add AI onto it, sure. AI can then therefore build a. campaign faster. But it is still a traditional campaign that at the under... At at the core has a segment and says, if these people's title contains operations, put them in the operations track. Like, that fundamental rules based nature of these platforms does not change no matter how fast AI can help you build the things. What we what we did with Fade and what I think people need to do is, like, rethink how do all the different pieces work when you have access to AI. You know? And we already alluded to a couple of these things, picking the right journey, mapping to a buying group. One of my favorite examples is which rep should I route this lead to? Right? Like like, you can create. some crazy diagram of, like, well, if this is true, then do this, but otherwise do this, all that. Or you can just ask AI, look at the person, and make the best decision. These are all examples of, like, really... Rule... Rules have a place when something must be true, but they don't handle ambiguity or judgment well. So so applying reasoning in the in the right places. I'll finish with just talking about scoring. You. know? Like like, rules based scores have a place because people like to understand their points and can say, oh, I understand why this person has a score of 72 because I can I can go see it, which is fine, but, you know, it's also limited? So so why not also complement that with AI scores where, again, the AI can just look at the person and and really figure out what's going on. Are they hot? Are they in a buying situation? Are they not showing buying signs? And kinda go from there. Okay. Probably rambling a little bit on that one, but No. No. I think that's worthwhile, especially now what you're talking about. If work if marketing work changes that much, then what changes on marketing teams? Like, do we have channel based teams anymore? Like, what skills do you need? Like, how do you see because if that really happens, what we're talking about, you have agents to do this and AI is doing this. What does the marketing organization look like? What do you need now? Yeah. Well, I don't know if I have definitive answers there. I mean, I think we're all figuring that out. But it was part of the research that the b two b CMO project did. I think that if there's one best practice that seems to be emerging is that you wanna have an, an AI champion, for lack of a better word, somebody who is the change agent for AI across the organization. And, that person should report directly to the CMO, you know, and and and and kinda make that happen. That... You know, for the companies that are large enough to have that, be able to support that amount of headcount, that does seem to kinda be a a best practice. I think another change that's happening is a little more subtle. But you're... Like, you saw this and you're seeing it happening in engineering, where engineers who have access to AI to code for them, Okay. you know, are are sort of moving up the stack, if you will. They're focusing more on stuff that, like, product managers used to do, and then they're having AI do the coding. You're seeing something similar in marketing as well. You don't need a person who's like, well, I'm an expert in knowing which button to press in Marketo. Right? You need somebody who is mostly operating a little higher up the stack to talk about what is... What am I trying to accomplish, and what are my marketing strategies, and and things like that. I think that, you know, I don't I don't wanna get too favey quite yet. We'll get to the demo part in a second. But but this idea... I I talked about the journey as a playlist. And and, by the way, I use the word playlist because people understand Spotify. Right? You. have a library of campaigns and album... Of albums and songs, and you mix them for the right person. And that's what the AI can do for your campaigns. The reason I mentioned that here is because from an organizational structure, if you have an AI that's sort of picking who should get which campaigns when, that's great. That's... They're the DJ. The humans are increasingly the artists whose job it is just to create really compelling campaigns that the AI can then, you know, picks and choose from. The humans know their audience, they know the customer, and they know how to create things that resonate and connect emotionally and that kind of thing. So that job changes a little bit. You know, less technical operator, more more creative artist. I I think I have sort of one more... Oh, but but I don't... The last thing I'll say is none of this is meant for me to imply that marketing operations goes away. I just think they become... The role changes. You know? And the simplest way to describe that is we all know that AI agents will just do the wrong thing very confidently if they're not guided and prompted correctly. And the way you do that is with context. Context about your business, about what rules and guidelines must be followed, the the data that it needs access to. I think, you know, I don't... I'm not inventing a new title here, but your market operations team become context engineers that are the ones that are guiding and constraining the agents that the rest of the organization uses. Yeah. I think it could be a differentiator. I think, like you said, in house, what AI can't do is your narrative, your brand, your competitive strategy. What is your eyes some of that? But I also think that institutional excellence is, like your processes. How how you set up your martech and your process, John, is how people experience your brand now. They come to your website. What happens? Who who does it get routed to? What gets served up? So I I think those two really overlap now. Yeah. All that tech. and AI and processes is how people experience it. Alright. Last question, and then I do wanna go to the okay. We've covered a lot of stuff. We've covered how marketing's gonna show their value, brand, AI, how the work changes. The CMO cannot tackle them all at once. Where should they start? Because I've everyone's overwhelmed. That's. what I keep hearing. So that's kinda how we finished the research report. So we sort of went through it, you know, though not explicitly. There were there were five imperatives in the research report, that that people should follow, and I think where you should start is... Depends on kind of where you have the biggest gap because each one lock... You know, each constraint solving kinda unlocks the others. So, for example, if you are seen as a tactical marketer, and don't have credibility, you know, like like we've talked about, you gotta start there because none of the other stuff matters. You know? How do you build your c suite credibility as a strategic member, you know, of of the of the first team. And the report has some very specific suggestions you can you can do there, things like, you know, bringing problems, you know, that... You know, to to the board. But but perhaps most importantly, being that representative of the customer in the market. If you're stuck in debates about tactical metrics, right, start by, hey, changing some of the metrics that you that you you have. If you're finding that it's just too hard to create pipeline and you're just doing the same things you've always been doing and they're just not working anymore, you probably gotta work on your brand and kind of, you know, lean lean in there. If you got all that covered and, you know, you're just not... You know, your competitors are still doing better than you on AI discoverability, that's probably worth your focus. And then lastly, if you, you know, just don't have the ability to execute at the speed of AI that is what's required today, you need to be thinking about the team. So where you start depends on, I think, where your problems are, but but those are all good things to do. That's excellent. I'm gonna see. Does anyone have a question? Feel free to put it in the chat. I had one that came in for someone who couldn't make it. And her question she's a CMO, and I have it down here. What is the one metric that CMOs are leaning on that gives them a false sense, like progress or comfort? Well, so the obvious answer to that is MQLs, which we sort of covered. So let me just actually think, is there a a second order one here? I don't know. What comes to my mind here is is is actually budget, which is not really a metric. Mhmm. You know? But, you know, one of the most credibility things CMOs do, credibly building c... Things that CMOs do, is to go back to their CEO and say, I don't have a really strategic thing to do with this budget this quarter. I wanna, you know, not spend it, but I need to make sure that that means it doesn't go away next quarter. And if you can... You know, I I would argue if you can't have that conversation with your CEO, you might be in the wrong company. But I think if you can have that conversation, it's very credibility building. It's very good. No. It was interesting. It was a conversation ended up happening, and she was asking, like, where's this giving me a false sense of progress? Like, what are the things I need to I'm looking at that maybe have changed. So I said I would ask you. So thank. you. I mean, the MQL is the obvious one. Yeah. You know, web traffic is the opposite. Right? We're all seeing web traffic go down. You know, and so, you know, we just need to sort of understand how that's evolving. Yeah. Alright. John, any last words for the audience? Otherwise, I'm gonna get into the backstage path. I wanna give you the floor for another minute. Is there anything else you wanna add? Only that... You know, if if you're a a CMO at a b two b company at scale, so typically companies with more than a few 100 employees, we would love to have you as a member of the b two b CMO community. So go to b2bcmo.com and apply. Excellent. And then I'm gonna really highly recommend that everyone on the session stay on because, John, you're gonna give us a look at Fave, which is your new AI marketing platform. And, hopefully, I think it's gonna address a lot of things we brought up. In fact, let me ask you one last question. What made you realize that the platforms we had weren't there and you needed to change it? Like, was there a particular thing that came up and you decided this is what I wanna do? Yeah. I mean, when I when I left, Demandbase and was thinking about starting a new company, I wasn't necessarily gonna stay in Martech. But just... I got pulled back to it because so many marketers I spoke to were just like, I am frustrated with this Marketo. Like, my renewal's coming up. They wanna raise my price. There's been nothing new. Like like, why isn't there something better? And and I I was like, okay. Well, somebody's gonna build the AI native better alternative. Might as well be me. So, yeah, we set out to go to go build that. And, you know, we're aiming at companies with a certain level of sophistication. We're we're not a solution for your 10 person start up. Our our entry level is $36,000 a year, and sort of... So, you know, you should have a marketing team, not just a single marketer. You should have a marketing operations person. But if there's a level of complexity to your marketing, we think we are, a great solution. But that's... Takes time to build. Right? Like, if you're gonna move off of a mature Marketo instance, you know, you're not gonna do that for a toy. And so that's why we were building for for two years to make sure that we could build something that is enterprise ready and robust, not just, some needle AI, you know, widgets. So that was Excellent. And there is one question that's came in, so I don't. wanna before you tell if, like, how you had this all come to life. Can you talk about the importance of longitudinal engagement and using AI for serving up the next, I think, piece of content, I think, is what it means, or next best action? Yeah. So, Heidi, I'm not totally sure I I I I know exactly what you mean when you say longitudinal engagement, so I'm gonna I'm gonna guess. But if it's wrong, follow-up with another q and a, if you will. So in b two b, nobody buys just because of one action. Right? As I said, it's too... It's complex. It's nonlinear. It's butterfly wings. So in many ways, like a chess player, you need to be thinking n steps ahead. And and and you wanna plan out the next best journey, not just the next best action. And, again, as I said, considering the entire buying group, not just a single thing. So Heidi says yes. Exactly. So I'm gonna assume that that means we're kind of on the right track answering her question. And then the thing about the playlist, this journey you calculate is it's forward looking. It's it's it's... If if if I know what I know right now, here's what is my best actions to achieve my goal. But then something new could happen tomorrow. Maybe somebody else from the line group comes in, or maybe sales take some action that you weren't planning for, or the customer responds to something you haven't responded to. Those are all... Now that's all new information, new signal that might involve an update to the playlist and the strategy. So, yes, you're always planning ahead, but you're also reacting and responding to new signals that comes in. Alright. One other question has come in. It says, the subtitle of the session was your job description didn't. What should we all be adding to our job description? First off, member of the first team. So, you know, if you don't know what I mean by that, Patrick Lencioni has a book... A couple books where he talks about the the concept of the first team, which means that as a CMO, you know, you're... You are not on the marketing team. You were on the leadership team. Right? You just happen to be the person that represents and manages the marketing department as a member of of that first team. And then as related to that, I've I've made this point a couple of times. You know, you are the representative of the market and the customer. You know, and so there are some CMOs out there who are renaming their title chief market officer as opposed to chief marketing officer to really show that just like the chief sales offer or the chiefs... Chief finance officer, that marketing... That this is not... That you represent a thing and not a and not a department or a function. Personally, I think the title chief market officer is a step too cute, and you don't have to go there. But having the conversation is very worthwhile, I think. Excellent. With that, Sean, please show us faith in how you brought all this to life. I think everyone's. very, excited to see everybody, please continue with the q and a even as I kind of go through. Yep. this. I'll keep my eye on it. Alright. And then I need to figure out how to screen share with, with Goldcast. So I I I tested it before. Now I just have to find it. I am not seeing a screen share here. Maybe gonna. ask our backstage team Oh, wait. to help out. I, found it. It was just. hiding. Oh, behind the many windows. You've got it. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. A couple slides, then we'll kinda get straight to the demo. So as we said, b two b moved on. The map did not. We built we built Fave to be market automation for the AI era. And as I've alluded to a couple times, more than anything else, those old platforms are glorified if then rules based systems that quickly become spaghetti as you try to consider more things. We've reimagined every aspect of what marketing automation even means when you have access to the modern AI tools like we talked about. So we built Fave to be the easier and more intelligent alternative to the legacy maps. To be to be clear, this replaces your legacy map. This is not an add on you have to buy. It is not another thing. You're going to replace Marketo, El Caparta, HubSpot, etcetera with this platform. And I'll talk about migration in a second. But the first thing when you talk to people about moving platforms is they worry about, gosh, what am I gonna lose? I have one dev partner right now who has been using Alco for eighteen years. And at first, they were, like, terrified of losing all that key functionality. But as I'll show you in a second, I feel very confident in saying because we built such a... Because we know the space, because we have the time, and because we have access to modern AI capabilities, we've built something where truly nothing is lost, and we've actually fixed a lot of the problems of legacy tools. On top of that, it's an intelligent system. We have this idea of playlists that make... Use reasoning to be smart as opposed to mapping journeys out in advance. I'll show you that. Third, I... As I hope you'll see in the demo, it's, you know, it is an easy to use system, but that doesn't mean that it's simplistic. Nobody's gonna tell you that Claude is simplistic. It's incredibly powerful. But Claude is also easy to use, because it has access to AI and a bunch of other things. So you can use Fave over our UI, over our chat. You can use it over MCP, or your agents can talk to it directly. And despite which of those doors you go in through, MOps is gonna manage the skills, for, to make sure the agent's doing the way the way you want. And last but not least, we've talked about buying groups and accounts, as being important, and, you know, we built that natively in the product. So as you'll see, we are, in addition to marketing automation platform, in many ways, an ABM platform, as well with accounts, buying groups, and people all as first class objects. So one slide, and then I wanna kinda get into... Well, I'll show you two slides, and then we'll kinda get into it. So when I say nothing lost and plenty fixed, I didn't wanna just claim that I wanted to prove it. And so we took 12 RFPs, that we had been sent or were able to download and had Claude synthesize them into 481 unique enterprise marketing automation requirements. So I feel very confident that those four eighty one cover pretty much anything anybody might possibly want in a AI native plat... Marketing platform. Claude then scored us and all the major marketing automation vendors, against those 481 criteria, using... You know, looking at the source code for Fave and the published documentation for the, other other players. And Fave came out on top against Marketo, which is what I'm showing here. We came in at a 2.97 versus Marketo's 2.38. So I feel very good and confident to say that not just in AI, but in email, CRM sync, campaigns, you know, all the kinda error... You know, main areas that matter. You know, Fave is a enterprise ready solution. And as I said, we've fixed things that that, are problems in Marketo. Just two I'll point out, and, by... This is true in Eloqua and other platforms too. One, CRM sync. You know, in Marketo, a big update is gonna blow up your Salesforce sync, and it's a real problem, and you have to manage it. We just take care of that. Similarly, in Marketo and other platforms, you have to worry about what are called race conditions with weird wait steps, you know, to, you know, make sure that things don't fire at the wrong time. Again, we solve that, and a bunch of other things, which leads me then, as I said, to the idea of migration as well. So migration... Everybody's worried about migration. I will say we we aim to try to get people live and migrated in as little as four weeks depending on how fast you can move. That sounds maybe impossible, but, really, once I show you how the agent works, hopefully, you'll see how fast you can actually build things. The AI makes the migration, I think, a lot easier than it has been in the past. Okay. So that is, the slides, and let me now show the product. Kathy, you... You're still seeing everything I'm sharing? I am. Okay. So this is Faith. I'm... By the way, I'm gonna keep this demo to about fifteen, twenty minutes so there's time kind of for some q and a, you know, at the end. I'm logged in to my home page, the daily maestro. We've got... Obviously, the chat, is ready for me front and center. I can just start typing. I also have access to 59 different skills that have been created. I'll show you all those in a second. And then there's also sample prompts if you wanted to have it help you set up, as I mentioned, or do some analytics or even build some campaigns. You have lots of, ways you can kinda get started. And all my chats are obviously available along the side, if, you know, if you want to kind of use the tool in kind of that chat mode. The part I like best here are my Maestro insights where we, you know, every... It's constantly looking at my configuration, my setup, my database, my results to find problems and opportunities that I didn't know about. And in this case, it's found nine of them for me. Some of them are good. Like, my deliverability is improving. I have some people and accounts that are kinda heating up. Other than our our problems. You know, here's a campaign that's not ready to go out or accounts that don't have owners or accounts that are single threaded. You know, you get the idea. What's cool about all these is if you hit ask Maestro, it... The agent is going to actually analyze the problem further and suggest solutions. So rather than run one live for you because then we just have to sit there and watch the AI run, I'm gonna open one that I have previously executed. And let's go full screen. Okay. So so here, it had found that there were a segment of my database that didn't have anybody that was, that didn't have any content to send to them. Effectively, they've gotten exhausted in terms of all the content I have. So the prompts that suggested who are they and then what's gonna fix it. So then the AI ran and did this whole analysis. And, yeah, not surprisingly, it's because these people have been around in my database before and they received every nurture. They are mostly, opportunity stage contacts across a couple of different personas. And, yeah, we've just run out of content. So then it suggests four campaigns or four tactics that it can create for me right now, to help give me new touches to these people, you know, specific to these personas, and how it's gonna solve them. And then also has some pretty good ideas for other campaigns that based on knowing who these people are and where they are in their journey, that would also help, the process. Of course, these... It needs a human to help create the underlying asset. So then what do I wanna do? I said, let's do something else. Let's do... Make the second item. And then it goes and... It doesn't just create an email. It's creating the whole campaign, the audience, the segmentations, all the follow ups, and all that kind of good stuff. And then there's the link to my campaign. So if I click on it, takes me to that campaign. So wrap... Before I show you a campaign, though, I wanna... How did this agent know how to build this campaign? And that's where those skills I alluded to earlier, you know, come in. So we ship 59 skills out of the box. They're everything from build a campaign to a brief to help me set up the system, help me set up my lead routing, my matching, my ICP, you know, smooth out my email schedule, all sorts of good skills here. You can edit our out of the box skills. So one of the types of skills are when you ask it to create a campaign, how do I create a campaign? So in this case, this is how do I create my field marketing campaign? Like, if I ask it to do a field event. So it's just a prompt. Make... You know, pick the date, you know, how are you gonna do it, set all your... What are the various steps that you wanted to take, And then when it runs, it it... It'll run. So I showed you the nurture campaign, but what I wanna do now is show you a different campaign that I built. And this is one I built in Claude. So this is a field marketing event. So I basically had Claude write the emails for a dinner I'm doing in Austin. Hi, Kathy. I'll see you there maybe. And then I said, alright. Go create it in Fav. So Fav ran. It used the exact same skill. So I'm just gonna show you. I can do it in Claude or I can do it in my UI. And then it went and created it, and, somewhere here is the link for the campaign, but let me just go show it to you. So this is the campaign that Claude created. I've got my calendar. In terms of the campaign metadata, there's a type. Marketo people understand this. These are like your channels in Marketo. There's a progression step. There's a success stage. It has a date, and a time. It has goals. It has a cost, so I'm sort of measuring, all that kind of thing. It has my links with all my UTM parameters, which are important to be enforced. Marketo people understand what tokens are. We have that. And then it even syncs to my Salesforce campaign as well. So that's important for measurement, sales visibility, and things like that. Inside the campaign are tactics that the AI has created. There's a promotion email. There's a reg form, and then there's the emails that happen automatically. So there's a nudge if you're invited but haven't responded. If you register, you'll get, we'll be in touch. If I approve you, you get the confirmation as a reminder. Thank you. All that kind of good stuff. Each one of these tactics, whether it's email or a form or LinkedIn or something like that, you can go into the tactic itself. And, you know, in a pretty typical process, I have to pick my content, my audience, and my schedule. On the content, this is the content that Claude created. I'm purposely using a simple template, although we we can work with much more sophisticated templates if you want. And then one of the things I like is you can create variants. I could do a split test. I could split this thing out by title or by industry, even country, if you want to. And then AI will help craft those different versions for me. In terms of the audience, here I just typed in, give me CMOs in Texas, which it interpreted as a more sophisticated thing. I can see the actual query, and then these two things stay in sync. So let's say I also wanted to act... To start allowing VPs. Is one of, vice or VP. Sorry. I should say contains one of. So you get the idea. You know, you'll see that it also... So I'm gonna do it right. I should've done this the other way and typed it up top. That the... There we go. One more time. That the text stays in touch with the thing, and they they stay in sync with each other. That That would have been more impressive if I typed properly. Alright. Anyway, so then I've got my schedule, which is when should this thing go? And you might say, well, I wanna send this invitation relative to the October 28 campaign at Anchor, which is really... I want it to go three weeks before. So, okay, send out on October 27. And maybe I want it to go out exactly at 9AM in the recipient's local time zone. But the problem is, what if there's another campaign scheduled for the same day? And then I have a conflict. So a better practice that we encourage is to set ascending window on your campaigns. So for example... Yeah. Sure. Aim for the seventh, but really send it out anytime during that week. And then let the agent pick the best time in the window. And so now when I activate this playlist, it's gonna think about who should get it, when they should get it, and kind of adjust things around to ensure people are getting the right touches, but also managing the communication conflicts. So that would happen if I were to activate this campaign, which now raises the question of how do you configure the playlist strategy? So that's in my playlist strategy under my Maestro menu here. So you first set your hard limits. I've got mine set to one email per day and three mails per week. And for executives, only one email per week. You know, then you've also got your quiet hours, your weekends, your holidays. And then this target playlist size, though, is, well, how many touches should the agent be considering when it fills the playlist out for the thirty day period? And my default is six per thirty days, but my VPs are five, my executives are four. So... Because I wanna sort of be... Touch them less less often. And then the most important setting is what is the optimization objective. By default, let's optimize for engagement. But if they're a qualified account or a qualified buying group, I wanna convert that to pipeline. Through an open opportunity, I wanna win it. And if they're a customer, I wanna drive my post sale optimization objective. So this is worth looking at because it's probably one of the more important parts of the system. So we ship with those four optimization objectives out of the box, but you can make your own. One customer did something really interesting. They created a custom optimization objective for their top three target accounts. So literally, like, if you work at Citibank, this is how I want you to optimize their playlist. So it's true tier one ABM. And they can do that because playlist are just prompts. So check out what this one says. Early on, we wanna drive onboarding and adoption. Later on in the deal, we're driving renewal and expansion. Make sure to consider product usage and health signals. This is what I mean by powerful but also easy. You don't have to know which table to point to and which field to use and any of that kind of stuff. The agent knows all those types of things. As a marketer, you're working at a higher level of just saying, this is what I want. Consider this, optimize this, and let the agent play on the playlist. I can't see questions, by the way. So, Kathy, you're gonna tell me if questions are. coming in? Okay. Yep. So so now we're planning everybody's playlist. So these are some of my real live playlists here. So, you see there's, like, I have a follow-up email for my event that's literally going out, you know, almost immediately for this person. And then, you know, he is a VP, so he gets five total touches. Sorry. He's an executive. So... Oh, yeah. This one was set to transactional. So he got the one that I said must go and then the four other ones. So you have different ways to kinda configure all these types of things. I don't know if there's anybody from Alberta in this database. Alright. We just have Jen in here, just getting sort of very fixed things. That's fine. But... Yeah. So let's say... Let's look at me. So I've got a... Interesting. One of the things that I've got going is I have a campaign coming up that's literally a hold of the date. So you can reserve a spot on the playlist, and then I have some upcoming things where... It's actually learned that I like to open emails on Monday, so a lot of my touches are planned for Monday. By the way, you can just drag those. If I want that one to really go Tuesday anyways, you can, you know, kinda move it to Tuesday. Each of these, though, if you click on it, it says, well, why did that one get chosen? In this case, this is a good touch for my journey stage, and here's the explanation. Here's what else was considered. Here are the facts and memories that learned... It's learned about me as it's trying to evaluate... Thinks I'm really engaged researching my own product. The facts and memories, as it learns about us, as it's sort of making the the playlist decision. And I can always go to the person's profile as well. If my computer will behave. And here you see their score, the... What makes up their score, the Maestro's take. Maestro's faves are kind of some recommendations about things that we might do with this person. I got my consent. I've got my playlist. I have some Maestro fields, which are ways that we sort of figure out, AI creates these fields based on kind of what we think we know about this person. Lots of other cool stuff here. You'll notice, by the way, across the top, this is what my people tab, but I also have accounts, opportunities, and buying groups. So let me show you an opportune... An account, which is interesting. So this is not a real account for demo purposes. Stark Industries here. Again, I've got those Maestro fields, including one that did research to figure out what marketing automation platform we think this account uses, which I think is super cool. But the reason I wanted to show you the account is if I scroll down, I can see the buying group or actually buying groups because I sell more than one product. I've got a core marketing platform. I might have an advertising product. I might have a sales intelligence product. So for all the different solutions I happen to sell, there's gonna be a buying group for each one where you can see which seats in the buying group have we filled and where are their open gaps, which I might wanna fill in through a ZoomInfo or or something like that. And then it even tries to figure out a little bit of the org chart. So I did not build this manually. The agent did it for me, although, you know... So the question is... I think this is super cool. So the question is where does that buying group then come from? And that is also under my Maestro fields. So you create a buying group usually for... So you you start by defining your core personas. Sorry, your core solutions. Each one of those core solutions, you're gonna set the topics or the title words that kind of, show that if somebody's interested in those things, they're likely to be a member of that buying group, which is set here. And then you also say, well, what are the roles, in that buying group? And then you set, how do you know if somebody's a member of one of those buying groups? Again, it's just text prompts. It's not rules. If the title is something like this or has some sort of, you know, interest in these, these are not hard matches. They're AI clues. Then if it's at least 50% confident, it's gonna map people into that particular, floor. Alright. I showed a lot. I just wanna hit a couple more things. I also have my Maestro fields here, which is, again, I showed you, like, that research one where it's like, hey. What marketing automation platform do they use? It's a prompt, and the AI runs it, and it fills in the field. In this case, it's doing web web research behind it. There can be scores, like, hey. How likely am I to win this deal? You know, look at comparable, closed won deals and come up with a win probability. It's kind of... It's not it's not hardcore machine learning, but it's a really fast way to leverage the intelligence of the model to get interesting scores. And then we still also have the rules based scores where, you know, if somebody submits a form, add 15 points, but decay it with a half life, You can still do that kind of stuff. The part I think is really neat is the suggestions where Maestro is looking at your conversion events and then determining what changes to your rules or new rules you might wanna add here. Okay. I've covered a lot. Things I haven't really covered are the rest of your operations, your workflows and your automations, your segmentations, your integration with Asana tasks and other tasks, merge and dedupe, account matching, account routing, reports and insights. There's all sorts of cool stuff there, Like, let me show you a different instance for my reports. You know, like, just how did my launch event do? Not that one. This one. You know, I'm up to a 116 demo requests and 487 webinar registrants. So, again, this report, I did not build manually. Maestro built this for me. All I had to ask was... Oh, it's right here. Launch day performance. Create analysis to just demonstrate how the Fave launch performed looking at these factors. And it just came up with analysis and, boom, it created the report. So I'm gonna map there because I think that gives you a pretty broad overview of how FAVE works and, all the capabilities, and I will finish with any last q and a if there's anybody left. There are people left. I have a couple that said great demo. I actually got a few texts, so people were very impressed, John. And I just wanna thank you. I mean, it's amazing to me what you've built, and I think it's what we've all been looking for. And it really covers all the stuff we talked about today, I appreciate it. needs to change. If anybody has a, active marketing automation evaluation or a renewal coming up and you wanna chat, find us at fave.com. Excellent. Thank you very much, Joan. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye.